I think that a lot of people have to realize that it is not a choice. And it is something that people just are.
You and I, as men, may like girls, like her, and get thoughts of happiness.
And all you girls out there may like guys, and get warm fuzzy feelings in your heart while looking at guys like this.
But there are a lot of people out there, who just don't feel an attraction to the opposite gender. Their minds aren't programmed like yours and mine, and they feel an attraction to the same sex.
And this happens to both men and woman.
I personally know both guys and girls, who have felt physical attraction to the same gender, and some who have even acted upon it.
No. It is not a sickness.
Stop shutting it down, because it is something you don't understand.
These people try to commit suicide, because of the pressure that they are put under, by Rabbeim, and taunting "friends", to "Snap out of their gayness".
That's not possible, because it's not a "health condition" or "phase".
It's called LIFE.
On a side note, here is a great video of Orthodox Jews, finally being able to speak out, about their stories.
This is all great and beautiful. But will these people ever get married, or have a family? Do they have sexual intercourse with other men and think that it is okay and acceptable according to Torah? These are things that are not addressed in the video.
ReplyDeleteThey may not be bad people. But that doesn't make it 'okay' to be gay.
Why can't they get married, or have a family? Adoption and Surrogate are both viable options in this day and age.
DeleteAs for being acceptable - no, they don't think it acceptable according to the Torah, they just know it a way of life. We all do things that aren't acceptable by Torah standards, and write them off for some excuse or another.
They can't get married because it's not acceptable, just as a Jew and non-Jew cannot get married. Does it happen? Yep. But it shouldn't.
DeleteI am not arguing that "they shouldn't", I'm just saying "why can't they get married" in terms of real world.
DeleteJust because something is not a phase and it is something that someone has to live with their whole life does not mean that it is not a sickness! No one is shutting it down by saying it is a mental illness. In fact, the opposite is true! By understanding the repercussions of the situation we can begin to empathize with such individuals.
ReplyDeleteI know you won't like this example, but humor me for a second. Substitute "Bipolar Disorder" for every "gay," "lesbian," or "homosexuality" instance in your post. We all acknowledge that bipolar disorder is a mental illness, and this helps us realize that individuals suffering from this are suffering from an illness beyond their control, but an illness nonetheless.
Why are you so resistant to the idea that homosexuality is not an illness? It does not make it any less real. It doesn't make it better or worse. It doesn't say that gays or lesbians are immoral. It simply suggests that it is not the natural order of the world to have feeling for the same sex.
"Like"
DeleteA sickness implies a cure, or treatment for it.
DeleteThere is no treatment for this.
And I agree with you that it is not the natural order of the world...but that doesn't make it any more of a controlled situation for those that are stricken with it.
There are plenty of illnesses that cannot be treated.
DeleteBesides Lou Gherigs' disease (I think), I can't think of any diseases that don't have a treatment.
DeleteCouldn't have said it better myself FG. WM, maybe you should concentrate on first understanding, then de-stigmatizing mental illness rather than adamantly claiming that something is not mental illness.
DeleteWhen you take off your frosted glasses and take a step back to accommodate others' opinions in your biased worldview, you'll hopefully realize that this is not an attack on morality. There is nothing morally wrong with a mentally ill individual more than someone who has a physical illness. It'd do you better to concentrate on internalizing and perpetuating that.
...and WM, go outside your box for a second and think of all those mental illnesses that cannot be cured...We're not just talking physical illness, although I'm sure there are plenty others that cannot be treated.
DeleteI understand mental illness. I don't consider "Gay" to be a mental illness.
DeleteAnd you shouldn't take potshots at people from an "Anonymous" stand point. Makes your argument weak.
And I was suggesting that you look at homosexuality in that way. It might help you understand my argument.
DeleteI apologize, it wasn't meant as a "potshot." Tell me this though, you don't know me so why would it make a difference if I comment anonymously or tell you my name?
I'm not going to address the actual topic here, as I've already addressed it on my blog some time ago. All I really have to add here is, c'mon, Meg Griffen and GI Joe? Really?
ReplyDeleteYup. Both people that both genders can relate to on multiple levels.
DeleteI'm sure you coulda found some better subjects.
DeleteThanks for the shoutout WW!
ReplyDeleteI watched the video, which I hadn't seen before. I have mixed feelings about it. As you know, from having read my post(s) and my comments, I DO think we have to be sympathetic, caring, and understanding. We have to, as a community, give them to room to figure out how to deal with this, instead of giving them the impression that its better to commit suicide or to leave Judaism altogether. However, I do not think that we should endorse homosexuality. The video sounded very much like "You are gay, nothing you can do about it, embrace it, and act upon it."
We all have struggles and this is their struggle. We have to be understanding and supporting and yes, there are other 612 mitzvot. BUT we are not meant to succumb to our struggles. None of us can say why G-d gave them this specific struggle. But it is something that they should try, with our support, to work on.
I am not saying that we should endorse it...however, if people are gay, and it isn't a choice, then there isn't anything they can do about it.
DeleteIf they were bisexual, then there are solutions to getting married to the opposite gender.
Well like I said on my previous post, sexuality is on a spectrum. I do believe that they can marry someone from the opposite sex and life a happy, healthy, even sexual, lifestyle. I'm not saying that would be easy nor it is something that they can do right away. There is research to support that being homosexual is biological and environmental.
Deletep.s. WM* sorry!
It isn't a sin to be homosexual. It is a sin for a man to have sex with another man, whether or not they're homosexual.
ReplyDeleteThis is a yetzer that people have. We all have yetzarim, we all have ta'avot. A yetzer or a ta'ava is not a mental disease, nor a physical disease, nor even a sin. All of those things have finely outlined definitions, and if you investigate closely you will find that homosexuality falls into none of those categories.
There are many homosexual orthodox Jews who suffer greatly knowing that any fulfilling sexual relationship is forbidden to them. Their valor in overcoming and living with this challenge ought to be glorified, and rather than seek to justify or marginalize them, we should learn from their example.